If you were a HOF voter...

[ghettochild]

pete was probably the dumbest player to ever play the game

[Hmark6]

Originally Posted by Fishercat I really don't see how you can punish Sosa or Bonds with no concrete or even "in all likelyhood" proof like refusing to testify. If you don't want to vote for Palmeiro due to steroids, that's your choice, I don't have the right to argue a refusal based on that. Likewise, most people believe McGwire did them due to his testimony (or lack of) in front of Congress, and while not proof, it's pretty close. Is it likely Bonds and Sosa did roids, I'd say it's at least a good possibility. I just don't get how you can convict a person and keep a person out of the HoF without any semblance of proof.

I never said "punish" them. The only thing I've proposed is making Rafael Palmeiro the Pete Rose of Steroids because he was the one who tested positive. The other three may not have tested positive (yet) but they are sure losing the trial in the court of public opinion.

The example to be made should go something like this: Mark McGuire is going to be the first one up for induction. If he is an overwhelming first ballot selection, (and I'm afraid he will be) then we'll run the table on these guys, and they'll all get in on the first ballot. The numbers put up in this era will not be taken in context. 500 Homers will be what it always has been.

If McGuire gets left off of the first ballot, then the other three (and all other ball players from this era) will be evaluated with much more scrutiny. The numbers they put up will be looked at in the context of the era. 500 homeruns won't be an automatic ticket anymore. Raffy will probably be left off, and maybe Sammy as well. Bonds was a HOFer before the steroid controversy so I wouldn't be offended if he got in.

Perhaps it is time to raise the bar for entry into the Hall of Fame. Is that necessarily a bad thing?

[Fishercat]

Not letting several of the best players to ever grace a baseball field into the Hall of Fame is a punishment.

Public Opinion thinks Pete Rose should be let in. Public opinion thinks that David Eckstein and Scott Rolen were the correct choices for the left side of the 2005 ASG. Public opinion made Armando Rios a 4th place OF in a recent ASG (luckily only three get in). Public opinion sucks ass, and reporters are no more intelligent than the given fan, they just have the connections and an ability to write. Simply because some fans like to give players a guilty verdict with no more than hearsay and observation does not make it right.

McGwire is a special case. He's certainly more suspicious of a player than Bonds or Sosa right now because he refused to testify. He never said he did it, but he never denied doing it. It's not proof, but it's something more to look at.

McGwire should be a first ballot inductee unless the voter weighs the possibility of doing a steroid so much as to discredit him from the HoF. In that case, we should just allow pitchers and Ken Griffey Jr. from this era and scrap it all together.

I'm all for making the HoF a more difficult place to get into...but when you're excluding arguably the three best power hitters of this generation with a total of 0 positive drug tests between them, then why even have a HoF if all that can get in are slap hitters and lean power hitters, or fat asses.

[Fishercat]

Note: Apologizing in advance if I completely miss a point...or two...or three. I couldn't sleep last night, so I'm tired but can't sleep type of thing.

[Hmark6]

Originally Posted by Fishercat I'm all for making the HoF a more difficult place to get into...but when you're excluding arguably the three best power hitters of this generation with a total of 0 positive drug tests between them, then why even have a HoF if all that can get in are slap hitters and lean power hitters, or fat asses.

Rep+ Good post. I'm not excluding 3 of the 4 guys. Reggie Jackson is just Sammy Sosa with rings. Mike Schmidt is Mark McGuire with 10 Gold Gloves. These guys belong in, but lets not fall over ourselves. A little skepticism is healthy. Again, the only thing I've proposed is making Rafael Palmeiro the Pete Rose of Steroids. They way the writers vote the other three in will set a standard for all other ball players from this era, and I'm saying, lets put the numbers in context where they belong.

[Fishercat]

At this point, from the one side I've heard (MLB and the leaks), I have no problem with people not voting for Palmeiro since this is a serious, proven (by test) offense and it's a fair assumption. If Ryan Franklin wins 300 games, I'll feel the same way.

I think there should be a higher standard for offense from this era due to the fact that offense was easier to accomplish. I agree with that. I don't think 500 HRs should be a golden ticket into the proverbial chocolate factory since that's simply 12 years of a little over 40 HR per. A significant accomplishment, but still, I don't think it compares to if someone did it a generation ago in a pitchers' era.

[Hmark6]

Originally Posted by Fishercat At this point, from the one side I've heard (MLB and the leaks), I have no problem with people not voting for Palmeiro since this is a serious, proven (by test) offense and it's a fair assumption. If Ryan Franklin wins 300 games, I'll feel the same way. I think there should be a higher standard for offense from this era due to the fact that offense was easier to accomplish. I agree with that. I don't think 500 HRs should be a golden ticket into the proverbial chocolate factory since that's simply 12 years of a little over 40 HR per. A significant accomplishment, but still, I don't think it compares to if someone did it a generation ago in a pitchers' era.

Exactly! I have to believe players are bigger, stronger, and quicker than players of a generation or two ago. Medical advancements (the legal ones) are prolonging players careers and making it easier to achieve more gauty numbers. Not to mention the fact that pitching is thinner due to expansion and ball parks are smaller. So what's the harm then in saying that Jimme Foxx's 534 HRs are more impressive than Palmeiro's 569?

[Fishercat]

I don't see any harm in that, although I don't know if Foxx is a fair comparison since he too played in a major offensive era (the 30's and 40's). In fact, the league average OPS was higher in his career then it was in Raffy's. I see your point though, maybe using an example like Willie McCovey.

There is no harm in saying such a thing and I bet a lot of people would agree. Is McCovey's number more impressive than Bonds? I wouldn't go that far for McCovey, but considering it is a relatively close number (one modern day season for a premier power hitter), it's a fair argument.

There should never be an automatic ticket to the HoF. If Johnny Damon gets 3,000 hits, I'm not sure if he should make the HoF. Really, what is he other than Bill Buckner who can play a really sweet CF and hit a little better in every facet at this point? Are 3,000 hits as impressive when you need many more pitchers to fill a team now. Is the bullpen so much more effective to shore up the necessity for 70 more pitchers on a good day? Is the international expansion enough?

[Lynch]

Originally Posted by CincyRedsFan30 No. If Pete Rose can't get in, Palmeiro shouldn't get in.

If Pete Rose can't get in.... NO ONE should be allowed in.

That' being said, if Pete Rose can't get in for what he did, then no, Raffy's chances went way down the tube in the past couple of weeks. Then again, I'd say no to Bonds as well, so if Bonds can't get in, then Raffy can't either.

[love_that_reefer]

Raffy played in a hitter's/steroid era. Not everyone did what Raffy did on roids so why is he not in? Many others supposedly took steroids and other performance enhancers and did not get close to Raffy's numbers. I still can't take what Canseco seriously because Raffy was showing that he could hit since he came into the league. After a couple of seasons, Raffy gained his power stroke. If everyone could do what Raffy did, why aren't they doing it?