Who would you want in the 9th

[HollywoodLeo]

Originally Posted by nyjunc Hoffman has been a top closer but Mariano has been far and away the best so to say you'd take anyone over him from this generation is ludicrous.

Except it's not as "far and away" as you're making it out to be with your homerific viewpoint.

Originally Posted by nyjunc Going forward to say you would take Rodriguez or papelbon I'd understand since Mariano is older now but Hoffman has been in the league longer so that's saying he's been better than Marinao which just isn't true.

I'd definitely take Mariano over Trevor today.

I'd take Cla Meredith or Heath Bell over Trevor today, and neither are proven in the role.

We're not discussing "today".

Originally Posted by nyjunc Regardless of how few opportunities Hoffman has had in postseason he hasn't come through. In 13 postseason innings he's given up 5 runs, Mariano in 117 has given up 10. That's a pretty amazing difference.

13 post season innings....small sample size, anyone?

I don't consider 13 innings to be a good enough indicator of anything.

[HollywoodLeo]

As I said, I'd probably take Mariano over Trevor anyways.

I'm just counter arguing the notion that it's somehow a huge insult to say you'd take the only guy in the history of the game with more than 500 saves over Mariano.

I apologize if nobody agrees with your viewpoint that Mariano is somehow so much higher on the totem pole that nobody is even close.

[nyjunc]

Originally Posted by HollywoodLeo Except it's not as "far and away" as you're making it out to be with your homerific viewpoint. I'd definitely take Mariano over Trevor today. I'd take Cla Meredith or Heath Bell over Trevor today, and neither are proven in the role. We're not discussing "today". 13 post season innings....small sample size, anyone? I don't consider 13 innings to be a good enough indicator of anything.

It's not close, do you want the guy who has given up 5 runs in 13 innings or 10 runs in 117? Their reg season #s are fairly close but they are seperated in postseason. Anyone who would choose Hoffman over Rivera in a big spot hasn't been paying attention the last 13 years or so.

[love_that_reefer]

Originally Posted by nyjunc He wasn't the closer in that WS and his postseason record as a whole is far from great. The man has pitched 29 innings in postseason and given up 9 runs, Mariano has pitched 117 and given up 10.

Trust me, I know all to well who was closing in that WS. Point is they probably wouldn't have gotten that far without him. He has a 2.76 ERA in the postseason so he isn't bad at all. I'll gladly take him.

[HollywoodLeo]

Originally Posted by nyjunc It's not close, do you want the guy who has given up 5 runs in 13 innings or 10 runs in 117? Their reg season #s are fairly close but they are seperated in postseason. Anyone who would choose Hoffman over Rivera in a big spot hasn't been paying attention the last 13 years or so.

I don't think 13 innings is nearly enough to draw a conclusion on how he will perform in future chances.

(Under the mythical world where we bring him back in his prime, of course.)

It's not like Rivera hasn't ****ed up in the playoffs on more than one occasion, to include game 7 of the 2001 World Series.

He's just had a lot of chances to make up for it, unlike Trevor, who has only had 13 innings of playoff ball.

We don't know if his struggles in some of those innings are due to bad games with poor timing or if they're due to him not being any good in the playoffs at all.

Not enough data.

[nyjunc]

Originally Posted by love_that_reefer Trust me, I know all to well who was closing in that WS. Point is they probably wouldn't have gotten that far without him. He has a 2.76 ERA in the postseason so he isn't bad at all. I'll gladly take him.

He has a 3.46 ERA in the postseason compared to a .77 for Mariano.

Originally Posted by HollywoodLeo I don't think 13 innings is nearly enough to draw a conclusion on how he will perform in future chances. (Under the mythical world where we bring him back in his prime, of course.) It's not like Rivera hasn't ****ed up in the playoffs on more than one occasion, to include game 7 of the 2001 World Series. He's just had a lot of chances to make up for it, unlike Trevor, who has only had 13 innings of playoff ball. We don't know if his struggles in some of those innings are due to bad games with poor timing or if they're due to him not being any good in the playoffs at all. Not enough data.

Mariano has a few screw ups but he didn't begin his postseason career screwing up. he was amazing in '95 and '96 as a setup man, he had 1 bad pitch in '97 then was unhittable until a meaningless spot in the 2000 WS where we were killing the Mets. He screwed himself in '01 w/ the bad throw to 2nd at Arizona but it was bound to happen at some point. The man has a .77 ERA, that's not making up for bad performances, that is being consistently great.

He pitched more than an inning in 4 postseason series, of those 4 he gave up runs in 3 of them. Rivera from '98 through Game 5 of the '00 ALCS didn't give up a run, 23 straight games w/o a run, 7+ seriews all of which he pitched at least 3 innings and as many as 6 innings. There is just no comparison btw the 2.

[GiantsFanatic]

Based on that logic, Derek Jeter is a better SS than Ozzie Smith.

[love_that_reefer]

Originally Posted by nyjunc He has a 3.46 ERA in the postseason compared to a .77 for Mariano.

No, Krod has a 2.76 ERA in 29.1 innings. Give Krod the 117 inning Rivera has and the ERA's would be very close. Krod is extremely good and so is Nathan. I would take them both!

[nyjunc]

Originally Posted by love_that_reefer No, Krod has a 2.76 ERA in 29.1 innings. Give Krod the 117 inning Rivera has and the ERA's would be very close. Krod is extremely good and so is Nathan. I would take them both!

We were talking about Hoffman at the time, he has the 3.46 ERA and 2.76 is light years away from .77. Rodriguez has given up 1 less run than Mariano has and he's pitched 88 more innings, so you think he'll give up just 1 more run in his next 88 postseason innings? I don't think you guys realize how amazing Mariano has been and how difficult it is to do as well as he has for as long as he has.

As for Nathan, he has given up 5 runs in postseason in just 6 innings pitched. As good as Nathan is please don't ever insult Mariano again by saying you'd take Nathan over him.

Originally Posted by GiantsFanatic Based on that logic, Derek Jeter is a better SS than Ozzie Smith.

As an all-around SS? Jeter's better. defensively he's n ot close but offensively Smith wasn't close to jeter and Jeter is a better defensive player than Smith was an offensive player. Smith hit over .300 ONCE in his career(.303), he was a .236 hitter in postseason. He was maybe the best that ever played defensively but he was a terrible offensive player.

By the way, the Mariano vs. Hoffman discussion is NOTHING like Jeter vs. Smith. Jeter & Smith were 2 completely different types of players, Mariano and Hoffman have somewhat similar reg season #s but he blows him away in October.

[love_that_reefer]

Everyone gladly understands how great Rivera has been in the postseason as I have said numerous times before. I wasn't saying Krod would only give up more run but with innings, the ERA comes down a ton. At this moment in time, I will take Nathan and Krod over Rivera. Its not an insult, Nathan has been better than Rivera for a while now. And we weren't talking about Hoffman at the time, we were talking about KRod.

[HollywoodLeo]

Originally Posted by nyjunc He has a 3.46 ERA in the postseason compared to a .77 for Mariano. Mariano has a few screw ups but he didn't begin his postseason career screwing up. he was amazing in '95 and '96 as a setup man, he had 1 bad pitch in '97 then was unhittable until a meaningless spot in the 2000 WS where we were killing the Mets. He screwed himself in '01 w/ the bad throw to 2nd at Arizona but it was bound to happen at some point. The man has a .77 ERA, that's not making up for bad performances, that is being consistently great. He pitched more than an inning in 4 postseason series, of those 4 he gave up runs in 3 of them. Rivera from '98 through Game 5 of the '00 ALCS didn't give up a run, 23 straight games w/o a run, 7+ seriews all of which he pitched at least 3 innings and as many as 6 innings. There is just no comparison btw the 2.

Mariano has been, and is an excellent performer in the playoffs.

I was merely highlighting the fact that even he has had some bad games in the crunch. (2004 ALCS also comes to mind.)

You can't draw the conclusion you want with Trevor because of 13 innings, it's as simple as that.

Again, I'd still take Mariano over Trevor. Proven in the playoffs is better than insufficient data, I simply don't think they're the worlds apart that you like to pretend they are.

Trevor Hoffman compiled 500+ saves playing for a shitty team half his career.